Doula Debrief Podcast

Season 2, Episode 3 Transcript

Guest: Nia Harris · Host: Ali Buchanan · A podcast by Community Doula Alliance 

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Ali Buchanan (00:06) Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Doula Debrief podcast. This is Ali Buchanan, your host. Today we’re having a fun conversation with Nia Harris, our grant writer. I’m going to do a little bio, and then we’re going to get right into it.

So — Nia Harris is a storyteller, land steward, birth worker, and founder of the community health practice Healing Us Evergreen.

Her community work centers on devising restorative approaches to socioeconomic health disparities through cultural anthropology, public health, and social justice frameworks. She aims to build on existing discourse and advance the perspectives of people and communities in reciprocal relationships with the earth, our natural resources, and one another. Nia is also a doctoral student in cultural anthropology at Duke University, pursuing certificates in African and African American studies,

and gender, sexuality, and feminist studies. She earned her Bachelor of Arts degree in global public health and anthropology, with summa cum laude honors, at New York University. An interdisciplinary Black feminist and womanist scholar, Nia creates at the nexus of race, gender, health, ecology, and reproductive justice in the U.S. South, the Pacific Northwest, and beyond. Nia is a Southern queer Black femme of African American and Native descent, with deep roots in eastern North Carolina —Catawba, Tuscarora, Saponi, and Lumbee lands.

Welcome, Nia. How are you doing today?

Nia Harris (01:36) Thank you, Ali. What a wonderful introduction. I’m doing well — the sun is out, I’m feeling light, and I’m really excited for our conversation today.

Ali Buchanan (01:45) Right, great. I’m excited to have you too. I love this — but we’re going to start off real basic, right, before we get into some nitty-gritty. So tell us a little bit about how you stepped into birth work.

Nia Harris (01:58) Yes. So, as I was working through my undergraduate degree, I was deep-diving into my family background and asking my grandparents so many questions. And a story that came up was one about my father’s mother’s mother — so, my great-grandmother — and her mother-in-law, my great-great-grandmother, working around births at home, and herbs, and doing a lot of healing work

on their own — due to, you know, not having access to hospitals or official medical facilities, but also because that knowledge and wisdom was passed down to them. And I was like, wow, I come from birth workers. I come from granny midwives and home herbalists. That’s so cool to me. Like, maybe there’s something I could do in that. And so, once I graduated from undergrad, I was like, let me pursue

doula training. And I had a friend who was on a similar path as me — also really interested in birth work — and we decided to do our doula training together. And right after, I moved to Portland and was looking for organizations to get in touch with, finding mentorship, developing my skills, and continuing my learning. And that’s actually how I found CDA. So that’s how I got into it.

Ali Buchanan (03:14) It’s always better to do this work with a friend. But when you learned about your history — did that lead you into the global public health program at NYU? Was that early on, or — tell me a little bit more about that.

Nia Harris (03:33) They were actually happening simultaneously. Like, I was like, okay, I want to do public health — I had those dreams of being a med student and becoming a doctor when I first got to college, like many of us. But I was like, well, maybe if I don’t do that, how can I still work with health and healing, and supporting the well-being of Black and brown communities? And so, as I was pursuing that and learning in my classes, I was also gaining all this family history information — not only about

birth work and midwifery, but also land stewardship, and farming, and sharecropping, things like that. And so I was seeing, like — hmm, how can I bring my lineage into my own public health framework, into the ways that I am being a community health worker, and what that means to me, how I can design that in my own way? So it was actually happening at the same time. I knew I wanted my education,

and the way I thought about my education, to be informed by my family history and what I come from — ’cause I knew it would mean a lot more, and be a lot more fulfilling. So, yeah — that learning was happening together, for sure.

Ali Buchanan (04:39) I love that. And it reminds me of the blog post that you wrote for us too, about that storytelling — talking about your grandmother’s hands and the different practices, and bringing that in, honoring that. We kind of talked about that in Mama Shafia’s episode too, where she was talking about wanting folks to remember, you know, wrapping the belly.

And you talked about that too. And I just — I love that that’s a part of the history, and you’re honoring that. I love that. So how do you feel like that has shaped you as a birth worker, but also as a grant writer? How did you get into grant writing? Tell us about your background.

Nia Harris (05:30) Right. So I’ve always been someone who’s interested in doing multiple things at once. I was like, okay, I want to be a birth worker, but I also want to farm, but I also want to take care of myself and earn and save money — how can I bring all these things in? So community engagement has always been at the core of my work. And when I moved to Portland and started in a community engagement position —

it was a new nonprofit, a new, budding organization that needed a lot of support with sharing their impact, sharing their message, sharing their communications. And I was like, you know, I have the words for this — naturally, I’m putting together flyers, I’m sending emails for community engagement work. So they were like, well, how do you feel about writing grants? And I was like, writing grants? That feels a little bit more elevated, right — do I have the skills, how do I do that? But

when I realized that a lot of grant writing is telling stories, sharing impact, curating a message that’s really going to move someone’s spirit to give you some funding, I was like, okay — this is a form of advocacy. This is a form of building a narrative that is going to shift the way people view a situation, an experience of a community.

I want to be involved in that. That is a way that I can sustain my own personal impact. So that started in my realm of land stewardship, food sovereignty. But as I was also moving into being a birth worker, and finding community to be a part of more so in that space, I was also thinking — wow, this is something I can leverage here as well: figuring out how to write about birth work and reproductive justice, and recognizing that,

no matter if it’s land or birth, we’re talking about the right to live well, to live healthy. So I was making all those through-lines and connections. And when I met Kimberly and Marnellie, and shared that I was doing grant writing with this other organization and had great success, they were like, well, why don’t you come over here and do that for us? And I was like, great — you know, if I don’t feel comfortable taking births right now, and being active, as I’m still building up my

toolkit, and being prepared as a birth worker, and preparing myself to show up for birthing families — I can exercise my advocacy this way. I can share my learnings this way, and do more research this way. That will also grow my abilities as a doula. So I was figuring out how to wrap it all together. It actually made sense for where I was, and what I was wanting to learn, and how I was wanting to grow as a young professional.

Ali Buchanan (08:11) It also showcases the different ways that you can show up in birth work. We talk about this a lot — there are so many different ways. Talk a little bit about that intersection — for you, and for our listeners, other aspiring doulas or birth workers — how else can they reenvision how they show up?

Nia Harris (08:37) Right. Yeah. So I’ve been in this headspace of — what does it mean to really be an advocate for birth justice, for reproductive justice, for justice in general? A lot of times people see that as having to be on the front lines, having to be boots on the ground, and that work is important too. But I’ve also recognized that there are a lot of networks and systems — local, communal, regional, national — that

need people to actually hold some of those reins: posting the flyer, or sharing the reel, or writing the grant, or having that conversation with a certain partner, or even talking to community members, having those intimate and personal relationships. And sometimes we can’t be everything to everyone all the time — we can’t do all the things. So I was recognizing that I can have an impact as a birth worker through grants,

through storytelling, narrative building, through writing and working communications with partners and funders, figuring out how to share this mission, how to share this work that is also doing something on behalf of birthing families. It works through the network a little bit more, but I think that makes it more meaningful when we can find what feels comfortable, what our niche is, where our skills are, and learn how to actually push those out

for the greater good. I think that also takes the pressure off of — I don’t have to figure out how to be doing a PhD and taking three births and also learning this thing and also still trying to work on my garden. I actually don’t have to do all those things. And if I’m not on the front lines, that doesn’t make what I do any less impactful. If anything, it’s all a part of the mission, the goal of the collective prosperity that we’re building towards.

So, yeah, that’s how I see it. And it might be a way that I just kind of make myself feel comfortable, but I’ve also noticed that in the people that I’ve met along the way — even just seeing the way that our team shows up at CDA, and how we’re all birth workers in some capacity or another, but we have these awesome other skills and businesses and ways that we are still walking the path and making liberation a part of our framework. But

it looks different, and I think that’s what makes it beautiful.

Ali Buchanan (10:59) Yes. You said it perfectly — it looks different for everybody. And I think it’s also a part of self-preservation when it comes to burnout. How many times do we see amazing people come into this work, and they do birth work, and then they’re gone? And it’s like — well, was it just because you didn’t find your place, like maybe supporting an organization, that infrastructure side of things, using your skill in a way that’s

maybe a little bit more balanced — because on-call life is intense.

Nia Harris (11:34) It’s intense.

Yeah. And I think something I try to relay is — just because you don’t have the capacity to take births, or take several births a year, or move your way up, that doesn’t mean you can’t be involved in the space. I feel like there’s a role for everyone. And I like to notice the different parts of my day-to-day that are forms of acting on behalf of reproductive justice and birth justice

that aren’t overt — not catching a baby, or doing something of that matter — but are things that are really important for a community. So I think it’s all about perspective, too, and giving yourself the room to find what feels right, what you can sustain, what works for your well-being — because I think those of us who find mission work and purpose work to be a part of our lives

of course want to do so many things, right? But we also have to take care of ourselves. So, yeah, it’s really important.

Ali Buchanan (12:38) And I think that leads into where you’re going now. You mentioned you’re a big advocate for land stewardship — so tell us more about that journey, and how it’s come full circle from where you started to what you’re doing now.

Nia Harris (12:57) Yeah. So, as I shared earlier, I was learning a lot about — at the time, in the discourse around public health, the community health sector of public health — looking at grassroots, community-led responses to health and health inequities, and things like that. They were always framing herbalism, and doula work, and even

growing your own food, as these alternative ways of healing. And I love to see — alternative, right? I used to flip it — capitalizing the “A” in “alternative” — to reinforce the fact that these aren’t different or opposing things. These are the original ways of healing. These are the original ways of taking care of ourselves, of raising children,

creating life, of tending to life — both human and more-than-human. And I was learning a lot about the importance of having a relationship with Earth that’s not just one of extraction and consumerism, but a relationship — seeing the health and vitality of my body as reflective of the health and vitality of the Earth’s body, and all the living beings. I had also kept — again — learning about family stories, and

the story that came up, after talking with one parent, one grandparent, about herbalism and granny midwifery, was also the story about sharecropping, and having land and losing land, or buying land — and what happened in the family after those shifts, whether it was land loss, or selling it, moving to cities, moving to urban environments, and no longer having that connection — hearing what that gap did in terms of knowledge, in terms of health.

And recognizing that — I want to bring that back too. Like, how can I be in relationship with land? Or what can I do to better — not necessarily feed myself, but just learn more and be more aware of what’s out there, of what’s growing, of the native plants in my area, of what I can grow in my backyard. That just felt important to me. That felt like a way of honoring my ancestors, but also reviving a legacy that’s within my lineage.

And so I started a research project after undergrad, or at the end of undergrad, and took it into postgrad. I was hopping around the country, working with different Black women farmers and land stewards and growers. And I recognized that I wanted to figure out a way to continue this work. I did take some time away from it, though I was always still adjacent to it, in terms of my own research — still adjacent through working with food sovereignty organizations, working with birth work and reproductive justice organizations. And I decided to come back to school and pursue this research project in a new way — actually looking at land stewardship through a reproductive justice lens, and thinking about the ways that social transformation is happening at the level of mutual and reciprocal relationship with more-than-human life, and what that means for our health, our physical health, our physical bodies — and then, what are we passing on to the next generation, right? And so I was again making these connections, and seeing the ways that I’m even challenging my own thinking around these relationships. And now, in this doctoral program, that’s exactly what’s happening — I’m reading and writing about these things, but also unlearning so much, as well, about what I thought I knew,

and what I think I know, and what I will know or won’t know, and all those things. So, yeah — it’s a learning process. And I appreciate still doing grant writing with CDA, in terms of documenting our impact, sharing our work, looking at what it actually means to build a sustainable doula workforce — what it means to actually provide wraparound care for families from the doula perspective, and also thinking about that in terms of — what does it mean to create safe spaces to grow food, and to learn about ways of self-sustaining a family or a community through food production, and learning about seed-keeping, and flowers, and pollinators, and all these things that can seem like they’re not connected but are actually reflecting just this beautiful — I don’t know what to call it — like, the recreation of life, and the ways that we are taking care of one another, and how the earth teaches us so much about that. So, yeah — I was long-winded, but that’s how I’m making those connections.

Ali Buchanan (17:45) Yeah — but it ultimately goes back to that public health, social determinant factor of just access to food. Groceries are expensive. You have to feed yourself — if you’re pregnant, you have to feed yourself and your baby, and once you have the baby, you have to feed yourself to heal.

It’s important — that work is important. And, going back to your original statement, it’s not an “other,” it’s not an alternative — that is essential, and it is part of the work. That’s that huge justice framework that encompasses all those different areas. And that’s the beauty of showing up in different ways — we can bring those ways in. We don’t have to be a doula, or a birth worker, in the sense of what anybody else says — we can really make our own out of it.

Nia Harris (18:46) Exactly. There are so many needs, in so many different aspects of the social justice space, the philanthropic space, in terms of how we can show up for communities — even looking at air quality, or water. Those are things that are affecting pregnant and birthing people all the time, and we don’t always think immediately of that connection.

Ali Buchanan (19:11) Natural disasters, too.

Nia Harris (19:13) Exactly.

Natural disasters — being prepared for things. And a lot of that, I was going to say, is about access to knowledge and information. Helping people see — because so much has been severed from the ways that we’re able to make connections between our lives and the things that are happening around us — helping people see that, hey,

this is important to you, this is important to all of us, your life depends on this thing, you should know. And helping people see themselves not as owners, but as stewards — being responsible for their resources, being responsible for caring for what’s around them. And that’s not to put the blame for everything that’s happening on us as individuals — there’s more going on here, we know that. But it’s also seeing that

what’s around me — the space that I am responsible for, my home, my little patch of grass, or my little patio space — there’s something I can do there for my family. There’s something I can do there for other people. I think the premise underlying that is within birth work, within what we see with the doulas and how they’re also thinking about care for families. So I think it’s always just noticing that through-line between everything — between all the matters — when

we get overwhelmed with, “Am I doing anything right, am I actually helping or making an impact?” It’s like — yeah, the making —

Ali Buchanan (20:34) Yeah. It’s like — or thinking about, and taking away the power behind, even just sharing it with your family — like your origin story, hearing what’s passed down. If you’re an aunt, an auntie, or a grandma — how are you sharing your knowledge about herbs, or traditional recipes? That’s just as important. That’s a part of it.

Nia Harris (21:00) Absolutely. Exactly.

Ali Buchanan (21:00) Don’t undermine yourself because of that.

I’m like — that’s so good. Tell me about —

Nia Harris (21:08) Remembering that we’re part of a constellation, and that there are so many moving pieces and actors that are contributing to what we’re all desiring, what’s driving us deep down. We’re never in this alone. And I think that’s a very encouraging thing to remember — especially in the times we’re in right now. It’s important to remember.

Ali Buchanan (21:30) Mm-hmm, 100%. So, as we wrap up, Nia — what would be some final words of wisdom that you would share with aspiring doulas, future doulas, birth workers, everybody else?

Nia Harris (21:48) I would say: trust your inner compass. You may need to recalibrate it. You may need to find it first. But once you do, and once you are grounded in it — trust the direction that you’re going in. Trust that you are being led down the path that’s meant for you, that your purpose is constantly being revealed to you, and you just have to answer it — whether that be actively serving clients, whether that be taking a turn, going back to school, learning a new skill, whether that be taking a pause, tending to your personal health, or your family, or your children, or the children you care for in community — listen, trust that you’re being guided in the right direction, and that whatever’s meant for you is finding you, has found you, and will continue to. I think that’s what I would share.

As generic as that may sound, I think sometimes those reminders are —

Ali Buchanan (22:44) It’s not generic! See, we just talked about that. Don’t take it away.

Nia Harris (22:48) You’re right, you’re right. I won’t take it away. That’s important. That’s the message I have, and that’s the message that is supposed to be shared. So, thank you, Ali.

Ali Buchanan (22:58) Yes — thank you, Nia, so much. We have all of these fun conversations all the time. And, you know — okay, I’m going to backtrack before we end, because I do want to say that she shares a lot of these little nuggets of knowledge and wisdom in our Mindfulness Corner. So just to highlight other ways she shows up for birth work: being a positive light, and sharing affirmations and resources. There’s grant writing, but there are other ways to show up. I just want to say thank you for that, for sharing.

Nia Harris (23:33) Thank you for that reminder. You’re right — mindfulness and awareness, yes, that’s also part of the work as well. So thank you, Ali, for sharing that.

Ali Buchanan (23:44) Thank you. And for everybody — make sure, if you’re interested in learning more about Nia’s work, check out her blog, we’ll link it in the description. It’s a beautiful story, and it talks about honoring that ancestral work. Learn more about Nia and her work as a grant writer. So thank you, everybody. Have a wonderful day. Bye!