Doula Debrief Podcast

Season 2, Episode 5 Transcript

Guest: Lilian Olero · Host: Ali Buchanan · A podcast by Community Doula Alliance 

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Ali Buchanan (00:00)

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Doula Debrief Podcast. This is your host, Ali Buchanan, and we’re so excited today to have a great conversation with Lillian O’Lero. We’re going to be talking about the importance of lived experiences with doulas, the ways that families of color can access doula care. And we’re gonna have that conversation leading the way with Kimberly, our leader and CEO of Community Doula Alliance.

So let’s do a quick intro for Lillian — you’re like one of our OG doulas, right? At CDA. Yes, yeah, I think we can claim that. She grew up as one of the eldest of seven children, so caring for others became a part of who she was from an early age. And as a mother of two, her own birth experience, feeling largely alone during the delivery of her son, deeply shaped her passion for supporting women during one of life’s most transformative moments.

Today she’s part of CDA, not only as a regular doula, but providing training and mentorship to future doulas. It’s really wonderful to have her providing compassionate, emotional, physical, and educational support to help mothers feel empowered, informed, and confident throughout pregnancy, birth, and postpartum — but also do the same for our doulas.

And as the OG doula, she was our first doula trainer for our very first Swahili-speaking doula cohort. So that’s so amazing that we had that. She also has her own business, Pendo La Mama Doula Services, where she proudly supports refugee and immigrant families, including Swahili-speaking mothers, by providing culturally specific and respectful care for those navigating language barriers within the healthcare system.

We are so excited to have you today. And Kimberly, Lillian — let’s get into it. Let’s welcome everybody to the show. How are we doing today?

Kimberly Porter-Ukeje (01:54)

We’re doing great. This conversation — yeah, I think let’s get into it.

Ali Buchanan (01:59)

And before we begin, we do want to say a little happy birthday to Lillian, because yesterday we found out was her birthday. Wanna share a little happy birthday before we get started. So with that, right, let’s kind of take it back. Lillian, tell us how you got into birth work, and kind of the origin story of how you met Kimberly.

Lillian O’Lero (02:20)

I think it started when I was working for a nonprofit that was working with families who are refugees and immigrants. It was an all-African organization. At that time Kimberly was with Black Parent Initiative, running a program there called Dipaz. And there was one meeting with the organization where we were just trying to figure out how to work with African moms and Black Americans, because some of our stories were the same, some of our outcomes were different. So that’s how I met Kimberly at that time. I wasn’t really into doula work at that time — I was just a community health worker.

We weren’t calling it doula. We couldn’t get into the hospitals at that time, but we were working with pregnant moms — doula work at that time hadn’t really started. For me, I hadn’t heard about it until that time when I met Kimberly.

Kimberly Porter-Ukeje (03:15)

Yeah, that’s kind of how we met. We were already working — you know, I was working at Black Parent Initiative, she was working at AFO. So we were already in the community working with each other, and we would meet and have program meetings with all the culture-specific nonprofits, right? And so 2016 is when I became a doula. I wanted to introduce doula care to the African community.

And so that’s kind of how we met. It wasn’t that we were talking about that in particular, but because I had gotten trained back in 2016, I wanted to bring that to the Black American and African community. Lillian and I talked a little bit and we just kind of connected. We’ve been together ever since — kind of connected, and she became a doula. She’ll talk more about that. But that’s how we started, that’s how we met, because I was very much into the community in terms of working with most of the nonprofits that were culture-specific. I was in meetings with the directors and program managers and things like that. And so I had shared with all of them about this concept of a doula and how we could bring that into our communities in a home-visiting kind of realm. And so that’s how I met Lillian, and we connected, and that’s how we’ve been together ever since.

Ali Buchanan (04:23)

Well, that’s — 10 years. 10 years working together through community and seeing families. What has kind of shifted since that time?

Lillian O’Lero (04:40)

There’s been a lot of changes since that time. It was just a way of getting to have moms in the hospital, because most of the time they’d be on their own. So when doula work came, and we got that training, it just gave us more leverage to have more moms who advocate for themselves, and be in a place where we can advocate for them in the hospital. The outcome has been quite big, because before that I know there was a lot of Black women losing their children, a lot of child mortality — kids dying. Figures have now shown that there’s a lot more improvement since doula care came into being. And having moms know that they’re not just alone — like, even though birth is a natural thing, especially for my community, going for prenatals was something they didn’t understand they had to do. And then all this training, and being able to know that I’m not going to be alone in that room when I’m having my birth, and there’s somebody I don’t know — having that somebody that knows you, that already worked with you on some of the things, it just makes the mom more calm, and the outcomes even much better.

So a lot has changed since then. Support for moms, there’s trust within the community, and people are becoming more aware that you don’t have to do this alone — there are people who can help you, who can hold your hand. And when I see those outcomes, for me it’s like my community has just grown wider. Even without having to say “I do doula work,” the same plans we are supporting are spreading the word out there, and you find out that everybody is aware of what a doula is. It’s not something we could have said nine years ago — “what is a doula?” — but now, if you’re pregnant and you’ve had this experience, social media has been spreading it, organizations have been talking about doula care, and moms are spreading the word. So I’ll say that: a lot more support for moms — they’re not walking this journey alone anymore.

Ali Buchanan (06:15)

So you also think that now the community’s more aware of getting access to it. How else have you seen your families and the communities that you serve getting access to doula care outside of word of mouth? Like, where are they going, what are the resources there?

Lillian O’Lero (06:35)

In the communities, a lot of agencies know about the work of doulas now. So there’s kind of a teamwork, where a lot of referrals are happening within communities — we share resources with almost everyone, so we know who has what kind of resources. When we work with the nonprofits, they already know that a mom who works in their office, who’s pregnant, will one way or another end up being referred to me or any other organization that’s going to help them through the pregnancy. They’ll say, “You’re pregnant — we don’t have resources for pregnancy, but we know this organization is working with pregnant women.” That’s how it’s grown, because when we started that organization where I worked as a community health worker, we started a program for just pregnant women. Whenever a mom walks into any office, they’ll know exactly where to refer you — either to Community Doula Alliance, or wherever works with pregnant moms. That’s how we get a lot of that.

And then, also in the hospital, social workers know who doulas are in some areas, and where people can get support. Hospitals are now — it’s become so well known that even in the hospital they have doulas; even if you didn’t have a doula from the community, you can still get a doula in the hospital. So word is really spread around about the goodness of having a doula, and the peace of mind that comes within communities who cannot afford it, knowing that insurance is covering it — that’s made it much, much easier, especially for me, working mostly 90% with clients who are on Medicaid. Knowing that’s something they don’t have to worry about makes it so much easier for them to want that support, because it’s not something they’re going to have to figure out, like “I cannot afford to pay for this and I need help.”

So knowledge — it’s made people aware of, “If I don’t know this, and it’s my first time as a mom, I need all the information I can get to be able to raise this child.” And I heard about doula care, and I know they do A to Z for you. So yeah, you need a doula. They kind of realize that’s part of preparing for your baby’s outcome. I might not know everything, but there will be somebody else advocating, telling, or giving me the information I need to make those right decisions.

Ali Buchanan (08:35)

And we talk a lot about that at CDA, right? Kimberly, how has your perspective shifted — you guys met at BPI and through the community outreach programs — how has that informed the work that we do at CDA?

Kimberly Porter-Ukeje (09:13)

Well, it set the foundation. I think, in terms of education, in terms of what a doula is — like AFO and then even Black Parent Initiative. When I met Lillian, I didn’t have Sacred Roots yet — it hadn’t been created. I got trained in 2016 by Mama Shafia Monroe, and then I brought that to Black Parent Initiative. And so then I started talking to people like Lillian and other doulas, people who were already trained.

And then I became a doula, and I was like, okay, we’re already working with families, right? We’re already working with African families, Black families — they’re already involved with DHS, they’re already receiving services, or on Medicaid. So how can we reach them with this model called doula to help them have better birth outcomes?

But it was also very new in the Black community as well. They didn’t know what they were being told when they went to their appointments — they really didn’t know how to keep their diet up and things like that. So I knew that even though the cultural focus was on African families, this was the same type of experience Black American families had, right — not knowing what the doctor’s saying, being discriminated against when you go in for your prenatal visits, maybe coming to the doctor late. So I think what shifted is that there’s more awareness and more education in our communities as to how to birth, and how to take care of yourself and advocate for yourself. And so I saw doulas as advocates for our families, to be safe in the hospital setting when they birthed their children.

Ali Buchanan (10:48)

And to speak on the cultural piece — as Puerto Ricans, you can kind of also think of the doctors and the hospital as an authority figure, so it’s really hard to speak against them. You kind of just take whatever they say as is. I don’t know if that’s something similar in the African community, or the African American community.

Lillian O’Lero (11:05)

That happens a lot, Ali. That happens a lot in community, because we come from communities where we do not speak up — we don’t even know how to advocate for ourselves. So whenever we’re supporting a mom who’s probably going to the hospital for the first time — she didn’t have to go to the hospital for any reason before, the only reason now is because she’s pregnant, she’s not sick, she’s pregnant — and whatever the doctor comes and tells you, “We recommend…” If she’s not speaking English and they say, “We recommend you do a C-section,” they’re recommending it, but the understanding isn’t really getting to her. She thinks, “I have to do a C-section.” So when I’m sitting down with them, I tell them: Doctor, you’re recommending — it’s not that the doctor said you have to do a C-section and you do it right now. He recommends it, you don’t have to do it. You’re okay, you can decide to say no, and it’ll be fine. And that’s something people from my community won’t know how to do — they hear “C-section” and start having that fear, thinking “I have to have a C-section, I have to have a C-section,” when there’s no reason whatsoever that you couldn’t try to have a normal birth.

So those are the kinds of conversations most of our people won’t know how to navigate — but like, “Doctor, it’s your body, how do you feel? Do you want to do this? Let’s talk about the reasons why, the advantages of doing it and not doing it.” Somebody to take them down that route — they would never even think about it, because once the doctor says something, it feels final. But this is where, as doulas, we remind them — that is a recommendation. I want to repeat that when the provider is there, so they hear it too — it is a recommendation, it’s not a matter of life and death. You’re recommending it, you’re not telling them. So I make sure the doctor, and the client, both hear that I’m actually asking: is this something that has to be done, or just something you’re recommending? So the client can understand — then we can say, okay, I see, it is a recommendation, let’s see what we can try.

Ali Buchanan (12:50)

You know what, Lillian, you’re translating two different things. It’s not only the language barrier — like, maybe you have a Swahili-speaking mom, so you have the actual language, the linguistics of it — but you’re also translating the medical speak, like, “Hey, a recommendation doesn’t mean let’s not have that conversation.” It’s so powerful to hear the nuances that can happen in the birth space, for sure.

Lillian O’Lero (13:05)

Yeah.

Kimberly Porter-Ukeje (13:35)

And I also want to say, with that — we talk about how a lot of our doulas are bilingual, right? And so when we talk about the African doulas who are bilingual, there’s the translation in language, but also what people miss is that Black American pregnant women are having the same conversation. Even though we’re both speaking English, we can talk to somebody in a different type of way. I remember I had a colleague over at Multnomah County call me in for an African mom, and they couldn’t get her to understand the C-section — I’ve talked about this story before. She spoke English, but “C-section” to her was, “You’re going to cut me — I’m going to have major surgery. Why can’t I just have my baby? What’s wrong with me? Am I sick?”

You know what Lillian’s saying — sometimes I think African folks think, well, “I don’t need to go to the doctor, I’m not sick.” But these are prenatal visits — we want to make sure you don’t get sick, right? That whole concept of understanding preventative care education prior to, as opposed to showing up when you’re in labor — it goes back to education in terms of our pregnant people knowing when to come in, when to go get a prenatal visit, what does that look like, what are your options, do you have to have a C-section, what is happening. So I think what I’m noticing is that there’s more education now in our communities about what’s really happening to us, so we can make a good decision as to what we want to do in terms of labor and delivery.

Ali Buchanan (14:58)

And it makes a difference when you have somebody who can bring it down to your level. That just makes the difference — I’m feeling comfortable, and it just shifts the energy. It really does. I think that actually leads into navigating hospital dynamics, and being an advocate for your client. What does that look like, outside of just having those conversations? What are some of the ways you’ve had to advocate, Lillian, with your clients?

Lillian O’Lero (15:20)

Every client’s gonna have different needs. There’s some where you’re gonna have to do a lot, and some where you’ll have to do just the bare minimum because they already have an idea. But working with people from my community, mostly I find myself just being that somebody who can empower you, give you your voice back. Because most people, when they’re on their own, don’t really want to say something. But I’m just there to stand with you — not necessarily talk for you, but just remind you of the things you wanted to talk about, because we talk freely. When it’s just my client and me, we already have that trust, we can talk about anything, you can tell me everything. But then when we go to the hospital, I see a different kind of client — one who’s not talking, just sitting there, having issues going on with their body but not feeling comfortable enough to talk to the provider about it.

And I’m sitting there listening to the provider, and I’ll say, “You told me about this and this — don’t you want to share this with the provider?” And they’ll say, “Oh yeah, and this and this.” There could be things that are very important for the provider to know, but because they don’t feel like they have to share everything — some of my community members will think, “The doctor will see if there’s anything, they’ll figure it out themselves, and whatever’s going on with me is just for me to keep.” But sometimes the things you tell the provider will help them know, “Okay, this is something else we have to look into” — even the trauma behind things that are happening, trauma the provider doesn’t know about. So for me, empowering the women — this happened to you, it’s important, it’s something you’re actually thinking about while they’re doing all these things, but you’re not voicing it. I’ll know, and when I’m in that space, I’ll say, this is traumatic for her, let’s not do this. But the provider doesn’t know, so it might trigger her in a different way. So it’s about just being able to be in that space.

Sometimes we’re going to prenatal appointments not because we really need to, but because I just want to see — sometimes a client will tell me, “I don’t like the way they treat me there, I don’t like the provider,” so I want to see for myself. And sometimes it turns out, “Oh, when you’re there, they don’t do this, but when I’m alone, they just don’t even listen.” So sometimes it’s just going there to hold their hand, and afterward asking, “How was it today?” — even when I didn’t speak to the provider or say anything. And they’ll say, “It was better today, I think you should come with me every time.”

So you kind of figure out who your client is — are they able to speak for themselves, is there something they’ll need? When I know there’s something major coming — she’s 36 weeks, there’s going to be more testing — I’ll say, I’m going to go with you that day. And then I’ll tell the provider, this is what we’re planning, so they don’t start telling her she won’t do anything — we already have a background, this is what we’re planning. Just knowing that.

Being a doula has really helped, because we’ve been allowed to get into places we weren’t able to get into before. We’ve been allowed to remind a provider that it’s still her choice. I know you’re recommending all this, but she can feel that she has some power, some control — instead of feeling scared about being told all these things, she still has some power. We just want to make sure that even though they’re painting a certain picture, it’s not to scare her — she still has the right in her hands.

That is what a mom needs most of the time — just making sure, when we talk about how her last appointment went, whenever a client tells me, “I was scared, I didn’t know what they meant,” then I can really grasp that something’s off in that collaboration or understanding, and I want to go to that appointment so I can figure out what’s going on. Because I’m not going to go with you to all the appointments, but if you can give me one report on how your meeting went, I have an idea of whether you actually understand what’s going on.

And then I’ve had a mom who doesn’t speak English, and the interpreters interpreted things differently each time. I’d ask, “What did they say?” “I don’t know.” “They say this.” “I don’t know what I’m having.” Then I’m there, pressing the provider — sometimes they don’t like it, but I’m going to be supporting her, and I have to know how I’m going to support her on that day. If I don’t know all these other things, I don’t even know how to support them.

Ali Buchanan (19:05)

Wow. To summarize, especially if you’re a new doula or interested in doula work — what Lillian highlighted, what you’re doing at prenatals, that’s so important to establish the relationship with the client and set the tone for how you’re going to support them. I loved hearing that, because that’s so true — what would that prenatal appointment look like?

And Kimberly, you’ve gone to prenatals too — how did that play in when you were attending prenatals like that?

Kimberly Porter-Ukeje (19:57)

Now that you’re bringing it up, it’s bringing back memories of why I became a doula. I was a home-visiting manager at Black Parent Initiative, working with teen moms — we had a teen parent program. I went on a prenatal visit with one of my clients, and she had a horrible — her doctor basically said she was having some problems, maybe a yeast infection or something like that. I was sitting there with her, and he inserted his finger, came out, and said, “Yes, you do have some bacteria,” and it was just overwhelming for me. I was shocked that he just went in like that.

So after he left, I asked her, “Is this normal?” And she said, “Yeah, this is how he always kind of treats me.” She thought it was normal. That’s when I started thinking, this is not normal. This is not okay — I’ve never been treated like this in any of my own exams. And so I ended up talking to the medical team — I let them know how they were treating Black young women, and we had a medical conversation with the team and tried to work on it. No one had ever challenged it before, and I wondered how many other young Black women had experienced this with that particular doctor, and others like him.

So I was very much into asking questions. It got to the point where the doctors heard about me, and when I’d come into that particular clinic, they were already on point — “Hello, welcome, mother,” all the overkill, right? Because I had gotten this doctor in trouble, and that clinic knew: any time a patient comes in here with Kimberly, we have to be on our P’s and Q’s.

So, yeah — that’s what it was. That was traumatizing, to be honest with you, to actually see that. That’s why I’m telling you all, as doulas, really be present at the prenatal. If you see something that’s wrong, if you see your patient respond in a certain way and think, “That’s normal,” but you feel like it’s not right — you need to say something, because they might think, “Well, you’re the doctor, you know what you’re doing.” No — you might be violating me, right? In the way you’re touching me, the way you’re not listening to me, the way you’re talking over me — and that goes for the nurses too. Prenatals are very important. That is why I became a doula.

Ali Buchanan (22:08)

Just for our listeners to consider — you don’t necessarily always have to attend the prenatal appointments the client is going to, but you can have your own prenatal check-in with the family. That’s a great way, like Lillian was saying, of checking in — how was your appointment? Because then you can really talk through and discuss what to do next time, so you’re ready — you have questions about what you weren’t able to share before, like, okay, let’s talk about these, how can we have these conversations with the doctor in the room? Because you need to start setting the stage before birth — you can’t just keep it quiet, or expect the doula to do it for you. We want to create this open communication, so, like Lillian said, giving them the voice.

Now, Lillian, what’s your birth number? How many clients have you supported? Put you on the spot.

Lillian O’Lero (22:50)

I get asked that a lot. I think I’m up to around four hundred and fifty.

Ali Buchanan (23:05)

Ooh, congratulations!

Lillian O’Lero (23:10)

Yeah. Before I became a certified or licensed doula, I would do about seventy a year. I think currently, last year, I did sixty-four. So it’s kind of still—

Ali Buchanan (23:25)

Sixty-four to seventy, yeah — girl, you might as well be a midwife! You know, so—

Kimberly Porter-Ukeje (23:36)

Yeah.

Lillian O’Lero (23:38)

I tried. So last week I had four babies. This week I’m hoping I’ll sleep.

Ali Buchanan (23:50)

How have you stepped into the doula mentorship role?

Lillian O’Lero (24:05)

I don’t know how it told itself and became part of my life, because some things you do, you don’t even think you’re doing them. Doula work has just been giving, serving, giving part of yourself — but then there are some clients who look back. You can support a lot of clients, but only a few will come back and give you feedback. And sometimes it’s the ones you did the minimum for who’ll come back and tell you, “I really appreciate how you did this,” and the ones you did even more for don’t even recognize you were there trying to assist.

But through the support, through the care, through loving these moms through labor and having their babies in their arms — what I’ve learned is there are so many of those moms I’ve supported that, looking back, I think, I just want them to be doing the same thing I’m doing. That’s been the best reward, because I can’t be the only Lillian in the community — we want like twenty Lillians doing the same things we’re doing, because the community is big and I can’t be everywhere. So out of supporting moms who went through a really tough time, just to see their babies here and have the outcomes they wanted — some of them said, “I want to be a doula.” They didn’t just say it, they actually wanted my hands to support them in that. And I’ve helped more than ten moms become doulas and do the same thing I’m doing.

Some of them are my backup. I’m still mentoring them — if they’re newer and they’re in the hospital and don’t know what to do, they’ll still call me, or I’ll be their backup. I’ll always be their backup, because they came to doula work because of me. So I’m the full-time backup anytime, whether I’m there physically or on the phone. That is a reward — and seeing that some of them are actually even better doulas than me. And I’m like, well, that’s it — none of us knows it all, there’s something each of them knows better than I do. Some people are just good at talking to a client — sometimes they don’t need much. Some clients don’t even want you to touch them, they just need to know you’re there — that’s a reassurance for them, that you’re here in the room. “I don’t want you touching me,” and you allow that — asking, “How best do I support you?”

Ali Buchanan (25:35)

Yeah, and sometimes it’s nice when you get those easier ones — it’s a break, you’re like, yeah, okay, I’m over here. It’s nice to have those.

Lillian O’Lero (25:50)

And there’s some who make you earn that money — you’ll be on your feet the whole time, doing the same thing, because that’s the only way she feels like she’s getting the support she needs. So it varies, but I look back and I’m so happy to know there are some who saw what I did and wanted to carry on that legacy — to also do the same thing, support other people. The way I was supported, I want to support somebody else. And those are the best doulas, because they know how being a doula impacted their life, and they’re able to carry that same thing and do it for another client. They can never go wrong, because they know exactly what they needed, and they found that, and they even wanted to do more. So for me, that is the payback. It really is.

Kimberly Porter-Ukeje (27:03)

I always like to think about the cultural, historical reason for why we are where we are right now. I was looking at the word Sankofa — that means “to go back.” It’s an African word — Sankofa, to go back and get it. For me, as an African American, I was always taught “each one, teach one” — when you learn, you’re supposed to share that with the generation coming after you. I think Lillian and I are really good at doing that.

I noticed when we had our open house that most of the African doulas — she’s a Mama Doula, she’s a Mama Doula amongst all the doulas. They come to her — some of them are doulas because of her. Like, I learned how to be a doula from Mama Shafia, and then I met Lillian. So now Lillian is raising a generation — we could be doulas for the doulas’ kids one day, you know. I think that’s very much rooted in the Black American, and definitely the African, community — for us to have a next generation. We’re always preparing the next generation. Lillian said it well — some of them are smarter, and we want that. I want my daughter to be smarter than I was; my mom was smarter than my grandmother. We want to pass that on, and that’s the richness of being a doula — making it culturally centered, passing down these traditions from woman to woman. That’s what we’re doing.

And so I want Lillian to talk a little bit about being one of our trainers. I know you touched on it, but I think that’s what Ali was getting ready to ask about — you being one of our lead trainers at CDA. Talk about that.

Lillian O’Lero (28:41)

That also began when we initially started doing the doula training. After I got my own doula training, I wanted to recruit more doulas who speak Swahili, like me, because we have a community that’s quite large and we don’t have enough doulas who speak Swahili. At that point I became interested in being a trainer, and there was a training being given to those who wanted to train others — not just be a doula already, but be able to train other people in the curriculum, so they could be who we are.

Working with Swahili-speaking women, I found women who were interested — they already knew what to do, some had even done this work back home, but couldn’t practice here because they couldn’t afford to go to school and get certified. So we organized a group of interested women — ten students wanted to train in Swahili — and we collaborated with Community Doula Alliance, where they were able to train me. That was my first training. Then the second one, I trained alongside someone who could translate everything into Swahili for the clients, doing it in both Swahili and English.

That was a partnership where we had our first group of nine ladies graduate as doulas who speak different languages from Africa. That was a real success — it was rewarding to see them wake up every weekend and show up for the training, so that whenever help was needed in the community, I could say, “Call so-and-so, she already has the training and can assist.” Before, they would still show up, but without the training. Now they know what to do.

That was really effective back then. And even though I’m still training now, I’m doing it in English — I haven’t done another one in Swahili yet, but I’m looking forward to doing one again in the future.

Ali Buchanan (30:30)

Here we go — okay, let’s do it! Yeah, that would be cool.

Kimberly Porter-Ukeje (30:51)

I feel like the last ten years or so have been amazing, in terms of what Lillian and I have been able to accomplish, introducing this type of work to our communities. It’s been amazing. It was a hard sell, really — to be able to get our people to even trust the medical system, and not be violated in that process. But it’s growing. It would be great if we could have the training in other languages too — other African languages, Igbo, Hausa, and all the others.

Ali Buchanan (31:28)

Yeah, and that’s what I love — for me, that’s what giving back to the community looks like. Every time we go to spaces where moms are having babies, I see interpreters there in every language, and I ask myself, why don’t we have doulas in every language too? Because a client who has a doula who speaks their language — that’s the best thing. And there are so many languages.

Lillian O’Lero (31:50)

If I’m only Swahili, I’m covering maybe seven other languages I don’t speak, because they’re stuck with me — there’s no other doula who speaks their language. So we still have a lot of work to do. I think training in more languages is how we move forward. When Kimberly first talked about bringing a hub for doulas together as CDA, I saw the vision she had, and I thought, this is going to be beautiful, because we didn’t have something like that before. And now I look back and see — whatever her desire was, whatever her vision was, it has come to pass. It’s actually beautiful to see us gathered, more than forty or fifty doulas sitting in one place, when at one time it was only one or three people. That shows good leadership — it was timely, it was the right thing at the right time.

And every time, I think, I can’t go be everywhere myself — you better go get trained, because we need you to help this client, not just as an interpreter. It would be so good if you were the doula yourself — they want that, they just haven’t been told about it. So it would be beautiful if someone could be called and there would be a doula who speaks that client’s language. Sometimes people have just arrived here and don’t even know how to get support — getting someone who speaks your language, and an agency that can say, “We need a doula who speaks this language, we have one.” That’s how I think CDA will one day be: need a doula who speaks this language, go to CDA, you’ll find one.

Ali Buchanan (33:20)

Love it. Speak it, that’s right! It really is — and it’s not only the language, but looking back and seeing how many of our doulas trace back to you, Lillian. We’re doing a photo shoot tomorrow of two doulas you trained or helped bring in — it’s just amazing to keep growing and keep seeing that legacy, for sure. So, any last words, Lillian, to share with our communities, our families, future doulas?

Lillian O’Lero (33:45)

I just want to share: let’s spread the word of how beautiful having a doula is, and the benefits of it, to people who don’t know. I know a lot of people see things on social media, even about pregnancy, and sometimes wrong information gets into the wrong hands. Even with clients I’ve seen — I once had a client who saw something on social media she was about to try, and I happened to be there in time to advise her. Not everything you see on social media is actually good for you, even if other pregnant women are doing it. So information is very important.

Even though we see a lot of things happening, everybody’s story is different — even if so-and-so did something and she was pregnant, it can’t be the same story for you, because your body is different. So when you go through labor, what I tell moms most of the time is: just listen to your body. Whatever your body is telling you, obey it, because your body is trying to tell you something — it’s not going to be the same story as someone else’s. The minute you learn that your body is different, it will react differently — not like your sister’s, not like your mama’s. That’s something I think is very important for every mom to know.

Part of our doula work is helping them recognize that it might not go the same way as someone else’s story, but this is how mine is going to be — just focusing on your body. That’s for the clients and for the doulas too. Keep doing the amazing work we’re doing — it’s work, every step of the way.

Ali Buchanan (35:15)

I love it. Thank you so much, Lillian — this was such a good conversation. Well, thank you again, Lillian and Kimberly, for joining us today. Make sure you keep listening, and yeah — everybody, have a wonderful evening. Bye!

Lillian O’Lero (35:35)

Thank you. Bye!